Rating the Refs in NYC

[psalguy]

With all of the talk about recent referees blowing calls, and having personal feelings toward certain coaches and honestly, just not being any good at what they are paid to do, its time to put things into perspective.

The good refs move up to college and are selective with the games they take on. The assignors don't realistically have a wealth of quality refs as the season goes forward. In the recent "Fingerprintgate" crackdown, some good refs are not able to be assigned due to legal, financial or certification issues. Not to mention, an addition of new teams over the last 10 years and refs failing floor tests, Now you have "overworked" refs who may have games every single day. Imagine teams playing every single day? Would they be as good as they are or even as effective playing a whole season every single day? The ref crunch has made this a reality.

Coaches rate refs numerically 1-5 for their performance after each game. This is mandatory. Ref assignors get his data and so does the PSAL presumptuously. I believe the competition level is different in the B, A and AA. In the AA particularly, managing the :35 second shot clock and the table is a chore for 2 refs and then lets not forget about the game taking place. Refs are human beings and should be given the same benefit of the doubt the kids and coaches are given....NONE! I believe that it is time to hold refs accountable to the same standard that coaches and kids are held to. We are all human and we all make mistakes and lets remember, this is an emotional game and all of us would do things over if given the chance to have a better day.

Here are my suggestions;

1. In addition to that numerical rating, there should be a open ended response area where coaches can enter a written detailed response and it should be accessable to the ref to view. There some miserable refs, with diplorable people skills, personal issues and poor set ways who won't even take the time to digest the information, but for the most part, refs what to be the best and move up. If refs read coaches comments, I would hope they would heed some of the constructive criticism. Coaches be mindful that refs should be able to post responses and coaches can be way more reasonable once that loss is in the books a few days later.

2. I urge the PSAL to make the referee class (minus the floor test) mandatory for coaches and I suggest they pay for it as part of the coaches staff development. So many times coaches argue and dont know the rule and it isnt the refs job to explain the rule during the heat of the game.

3. Every coach should review their game referee assignments in advance and if you have someone who you have a professional or chemistry problem with, ask the assignor to make a switch. I experience that the assignor may not for a number of reasons. In this case, TAPE YOUR GAMES FROM YOUR BENCH! I see a dramatic change in the attitudes and work performance of refs when they know they are being taped! It is your right to tape games as outlined in the PSAL permission slip for the players. Send in complaints with FOOTAGE and seeing is believing.

4. Refs should be benched for bad performances just like players. I personally know of refs that work every day who get 1s and 2s and still work. I know some refs that don't run up and down the court and make calls out of position. I know refs that just cannot do any better and are nice people. BENCH UM! And make their numerical ratings stats available to coaches.
Footage of bad decisions, poor calls or unmerited technical fouls that get overturned should result in work reductions (not that is doesn't already)

5. Finally, if a coach requests never to have a ref on their game, why should the coach have to endure that ref? I guarantee you if a ref says please dont give me that coach, then they will get another assignment. Period.

Don't want to rate refs but big shouts to the iron men and good refs that stay clear of the BS and do their jobs A1 style and have the ability to use the technical foul as the last means and not a means of control intimidation or bullying;

Oklahoma Simms
Creighton Barry
Mike Napolitano
Vinny Murray
Roger Murray
Les Adams
Al Fortunato
Mike Fortunato
Kev Fahy
Tommy Morrison
John Neis
Ike Singleton
Howard Davis
George Castellanos
Alex Jones
Sidney Poisnett
Ardist Brown
DEnnis West
Shawn Arnold
Tommy Coleman
And for those I left out, I hope other coaches will chime in.


This post was edited on 2/18 9:56 PM by psalguy

 

[TopDawg7]

Dag. I critique coaches and get my head taken off at the root. You critique refs and its cool?

Lets videotape and rate coaches and call them to task for bad coaching.

I actually agree with you. A lot of refs on the high school level are not good and two refs in the PSAL is obsurd. I also say the refs got in wrong in the cadozo game. I'm also saying its a double standard. Same as their are good refs and bad refs. There are also good coaches and bad coaches.

You actually made a hit list of bad refs by listing the good refs in your opinion but if I did that with coaches you'd probably put a warrant out for my arrest. lol

Hey, I think its all fair game as long as you critique the performance and not the person but i am just noting the hypocrisy rating and critiquing refs.

 

[psalguy]

This is a matter of a professional coach going record to protect teams from bad officiating. Can you name any bad or good officials? OR address the quality of officiating? No. thats not a concern of yours. You are here to look for negative things to write about.

In your case, my problem was you talking wreckless and me not knowing if you had anything to do with basketball or not. I actually have to apologize because I guess that is what blogging is for. I addressed you and others in that post that SHA put up about Tiny and his coaching.

Do what you do man. We all have our lanes.

 

[COOSCOOS13]

HOMERUN HERE BY YOU GUYS--- AND YES THIS FORUM IS FOR SAYING HOW U FEEL, WITHOUT RECOURSE-- SO LET THOSE WORDS FLY BABY--


IT GETS HEATED SOMETIMES--BUT WE ALL LOVE OUR NYC BALL AND WANT IT TO RETURN BACK TO ITS DOMINANCE--BUT I DONT SEE THAT HAPPENING ANYTIME SOON

 

[trevonn11]

HOWEVER, IF YOU ARE PARENTS THEN THERE SHOULD BE A PLACE TO VOICE YOUR CONCERNS. IF YOU ARE A FAN THERE SHOULD BE A PLACE TO VOICE YOUR CONCERNS. IF YOU ARE A COACH OR A REF YOU HAD TO DO SOMETHING TO CERTIFY YOUR PROFESSIONALISM. COACHES MUST BE TEACHERS I ASSUME. THAT BEING SAID AT LEAST THEY ARE FORCE TO DEAL WITH YOUNG PEOPLE EVERYDAY DURING THE DAY. THAT IN ITSELF MAKES THEM QUALIFIED TO LEAD THEIR PLAYERS ON THE COURT. IF MAURICE WANTED REAL GOOD FEEDBACK HE WOULD SEPARATE THESE FORUMS. ONLY THEN WE WILL HAVE A CHANCE TO HAVE REAL FEEDBACK TO HELP NYC BASKETBALL. 10 -15 YEARS AGO YOU GUYS WOULD NEVER QUESTIONED THE COACHES AT HOLY CROSS, CTK, RICE, XAVERIAN ETC.. MOST BECAUSE THEY WERE GIVING YOUR KIDS A SERVICE LOLOOLOL A FREE SCHOLARSHIP TO ATTEND THEIR SCHOOL. BUT NOW THAT THE PSAL IS MAKING SOME GROUND ON THAT, THE COACHING IS BAD? NAH LIKE I SAID BEFORE ITS THE" BAC" THE BAD ADVICE CREW THE POPLE WHO WATCH THINGS HAPPEN THEN HAVE AN OPINION. BAD COACHING AND BAD OFFICIATING IS PART OF THE GAME. IT WILL NEVER BE IMPROVED UNTIL WE CAN ALL SIT IN A ROOM AND DISCUSS SOME PROFESSIONAL ISSUES BEFORE THE SEASON AND AFTER! OH THIS IS TINY! WHO ARE YOU?

 

[COOSCOOS13]

WELL SAID MR TINY--WELL SAID---ON POINT I HAVE ONLY BEEN AROUND NYC BALL FOR A SHORT TIME--8 YEARS--- I DONT QUESTION ANY COACHES-- THEY INVEST SO MUCH BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS INTO THIER JOBS--IT IS EASY TO POINT FINGERS ON THE OUTSIDE-- SO I APPLAUD ALL COACHES--(EVEN THE BAD ONES) I KNOW AS A FACT I COULDNT COACH, NOT CAUSE I DONT KNOW THE X AND O,S, BUT DUE TO THE CRY BABIES AND ARMCHAIR COACHES WHO KNOW EVERYTHING BUT DONT PUT UP WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS---I STILL LOVE NYC AND ALL IT OFFERS--GOOD OR BAD--- I FEEL ALL KIDS DESERVE TO HAVE A CHANCE AND I WILL ALWAYS SUPPORT----TIME TO TIME I WILL SPEAK WHAT I SEE AND HOW I FEEL--AND KEEP IT MOVING--- BOTTOM LINE

 

[psalguy]

I used to work for one of these basketball sites as a contributor. We made a premium section for coaches, players, refs, ADs and college coaches. It was a small unit but the information was much more classified and much more informative. It was less than 50 people who posted and about 100 members and people were all in the mix of the game and not spectators, parents or ---- riders.

Being a critic is the lowest common denominator of the human experience and while we all are critics, very few of us are movers and shakers.

I applaud the entertainment piece of this site but I wish there was a "members only" section where people in the mix of NYC basketball could confront and address each other on basketball issues.

 

[CoachC101173]

I truly believe most of the people associated with P.S.A.L. Basketball are in it for the well-being of the kids. It may be naive but I do not believe in conspiracy theories, (e.g. JFK was shot by one crazy nut bag not the CIA) with that said I don't want to believe that someone would allow their personal feelings to influence their decision on the floor, but hey it might. All we can do is use those opportunities as teachable moments, let our kids know that sometimes things are going to happen that you have no control over and that sometimes you need to be accountable for your own actions and that those actions influence how people treat you. Refereeing is the most thankless job in all of sports when you do a good job no one notices you and when you do a bad job there is no where to hide. Coaching in the P.S.A.L is harder then being on "The Apprentice", my fellow coaches and I are teachers FIRST, and as such we are busy ALL day lesson planning, grading, and coming up with new way to "differentiate" our lessons and make them more "student-centered" all the while we are fielding 100's of team related inquires from contacting college coaches to make sure we have a permit for practice to setting up tutoring for a failing student-athlete, and just when you get a moment to breath you have to deal with "real problems" that go far beyond the basketball court. Oh, and some of us have our own families that need our attention as well, so I implore everyone to remember what high school athletics is all about, and remember the men walking the sidelines don't have multi-miillion dollar contracts. TO ALL THE P.S.A.L. BASKETBALL FANS OUT THERE, the P.S.A.L. is the BEST LEAGUE in the land, so LET THE PLAYERS, PLAY! LET THE COACHES, COACH! LET THE REFEREES, REF! We all share a common bond; passion for basketball, so lets use that to build a common respect and appreciation for one another. Crump said something about using your government name if you post a comment, so this one's for you Crump, My name is Coach Crawford from Newtown HS.

 

[psalguy]

LOL! My man Wayne!

 

[jaymo517]

Hello fellas,

I happen to officiate PSAL football (15 years & Fingerprintgate survivor) & it seems I encounter some of the same things written in this thread. In my opinion I do think there are good & bad coaches & officials on both sides. Reading this thread, I've had the same arguments as stated on both sides, and I see now i'm not alone.

I could fill this thread full of my experiences over the many years from bad coaches (most think there a cross between Vince Lombardi & Bill Parcells) & some really bad officials that should have there uniforms burned & should be ashamed of themselves for collecting money for the crap they do.

I think IF YOU PAID TO OFFICIATE OR COACH THE GAME, they should be held to a higher standard, just an opinion.

I can offer a few suggestions to parents:

Take the PSAL class, field test & all.

How can you give constructive criticism if you don't know the rules?

I also agree with taping your games from the bench & from the stands, so you can get some different views of the game. The NBA has 8-9 or more camers on the game, the crowd & on the officials. The tape will show if officials were in the correct position to make the call, it will show a lack of hustle, lack of professionalism, and cannot be argued, ITS ON THE TAPE...lol

It will also show coaches acting, as well as talking to our kids & officials unprofessionally, so they too will have to answer for the behavior on the sidelines.

Don't depend on the school to do it, I've been begging for the tapes of games where coaches had a problem, but NEVER have i seen one of them.

One big point I must say & cannot stress enough, THERE ARE JUDGEMENT CALLS & THEN RULES, judgement calls cannot be changed & 99.9999% of the time won't get changed. If an official enforces a rule incorrectly, then you have something.

Little know fact, in the NBA, NCAA & MLB, they review the tapes of games & when mistakes are made, the officials are rated & rated pretty hard. If your doing a bad job on a consistent basis, you are pushed out.

Example: Whatever happened to the ref who told Jerome Bettis he called heads when we all heard him call tails & Pittsbur lost the game? He's sitting home on the couch like us watching the games instead of officiating. FIRED

In High school there just aren't enough people to have that policy.

In closing refs and coaches are human beings and should be held accountable, but mistakes will happen. This is an emotional game and all of us would do things over if given the chance, I know i've wished i could have not blown my whistle or thrown a flag but its done.

If that's not enough, you've taken the class, taken the test, passed hopefully, then OFFICIATE, we would gladly have you, and we know you would take the task of officiating SERIOUSLY.

PEACE

 

[TopDawg7]

Refs are in a losing situation. No matter how they call it someone is pissed off. They are human and that is part of the game. I got respect for them. Most are good, some are bad and a few suck. Videotaping is a good way to have a checks and balances.

High school coaches are different from college and pro coaches in that most are also teachers and usually that's the bulk of their salary. I'm more impressed with how many of your players got scholarship than how many chip you got because sometimes that chip comes at the expense of a kid getting pimped and not getting a scholarship. I say raise student-athletes because you're a teacher-coach not the other way around.

I've seen some coaching behavior that oughta be videotaped as well. Many scream, complain, degrade their players and run around without a real plan.

On another note, Why do coaches get pissed because the fouls are not even.
Maybe your team is fouling more. Who said it had to be even?

 

[trevonn11]

LOLOLOLO TOPDOG YOU'RE ABOUT TO BLOW YOUR COVER. REFS ARE HUMAN? WELL I GUESS THE PARENTS, KIDS AND COACHES ARE ROBOTS? OH THE FANS? BUT ANYWAY THIS RESPONSE IS TAKEN PERSONALLY BECAUSE I AM ONE OF THE FEW COACHES THAT WON CHIPS IN THE LAST DECADE OR MORE. HOWEVER READ MY LIST OF STUDENT-ATHLETES THAT USE MY SYSTEM AS A VEHICLE TO GET A FREE RIDE OR GET PAID!

players who
starred at Abraham Lincoln High School. SHOULD I WRITE THE KIDS THAT WENT TO COMMUNITY COLLEGES FIRST LIKE I DID? OR SHOULD I LIST MY KIDS FROM THE JUICE PROGRAM ALSO? WHO ARE YOU? WHAT ARE YOUR CONTRIBUTING?
Jason Coleman * Mc Neese ST 1998Eric Thompson* St Francis 1999Eric King * St Johns 1999Sam Mielnik VMI 2001John Quintana St Francis 2001Elijah Clarke * DePaul
University 2003
Dominic Osier * Fordham
University 2003

John Quintana * St Francis University 2003James Barret * Sam Houston State
University 2003Eugene Lawrence St. John's
University 2004Sebastian Telfair NBA 2004Nyan Boateng * University of
California at Berkley 2005Nick Leon * St Peter's
College 2005Antonio Pena * Villanova
University 2005Kyle Cook * Bethune-Cook man
University 2006Brandon Walters * Seton Hall
University 2006Khalif Staten University of
Iowa 2007Devon Peterson * Kansas St
Univ. 2007Justin Greene * Kent state univ. 2008Vincent Council Providence
College- 2009Lance Stephenson Cincinnati
2009James Padgett Maryland 2009Shaquille Stokes Hawaii 2011Kamari Murphy Oklahoma ST 2011Jordan Dickerson SMU 2011




 

[COOSCOOS13]

OOOOOOOOOOOO NOW THATS FACTS---REAL FACTS---
KEEP UP THE EXCELLENT WORK---AND WHEN YOUR SON ATTEND COLUMBIA I WILL GO AND BUY SEASON TICKETS ON THE SPOT AND BECOME A LION FAN--- OR WHEREVER YOU ATTENDS----

---BIG FAN OF TINY HERE----

 

[helpusall]

I did a lot of research on you and your AAU program Trevonn11 or can i say Coach Tiny. I mean a great deal of research and there were a large number of people speaking highly of you and how hard you work trying to get your kids as well many other COACHES & AAU programs kids into school. There were the ones who didn't say good things also but, i see it as that's the few that want what you have instead of teaming up with one another, some just try to break a struggling BLACK MAN DOWN. Shame on our people! we have to come together like Malcolm X once said, "BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY" WE CAN DO IT.

 

[TopDawg7]

My point we're all human and therefor make mistakes. A good ref can make a bad call just like a good coach could come up with bad play.This whole thing started when someone dared to say you didn't coach the Luhi game well and were a bad coach. I wasn't at the game but said its more likely,it was just one of those days. I'm sure even Einstein had them.

Your list is better than most. Of the approxiamate 156 players you coached 24 of them got scholarships over 13 year. So that's about 2 kids a year. I wonder how many of the other 10 players graduated the team with at least D2? or D3? scholarship

 

[trevonn11]

NAH HATER I COACH 17 YEARS SO THATS 17 TIMES 12 WHICH IS OVER 200 KIDS AND MAYBE ABOUT 10 KIDS DIDNT GRADUATE ON TIME AND ABOUT 5 KIDS DIDNT WANT TO GO STRAIGHT TO COLLEGE AND ABOUT AND THE RST WENT STRAIGHT TO COLLEGE OR PREP SCHOLL TO FURTHER THEIR EDUCATION!. I JUST DIDNT WANT TO GIVE YOU ALL TH INFO. I WANTED YOU TO PUT YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH AGAIN. SEE IF HATERS LIKE YOU WOULD PICK UP THE BOOK AND READ IT, THEN YOU WOULD COME TO SEE LINCOLN IS ALL ABOUT FAMILY AND EDUCATION!. AND CHIPS WINNING IS THE ICING TOPDOG!

 

[psalguy]

Don't want this to sway away from the original topic, but let me give you a quotable. "we are all human and bound to make mistakes. The best way to decrease the mistakes is to increase the use of the ears and eyes and limit the use of the mouth".

That said, coaches who do this, people who played this sport and not people who blog away and get a check for pushing people's buttons know how hard it is to get on a NCAA court. Whether it be D1, D2, JUCO, CC or NAIA, the ratio of high school players who play on the next level in college is about 10-20%. However, the ratio of kids who stay elegible and play varsity basketball as a senior and go on to college is about 80%. Factor that in! If you play basketall and meet the PSAL academic standards, then your chance of going to college as a senior is 8 out of 10. Coaches think of the kid who logs in a couple of minutes for you, graduates and heads up to a SUNY school upstate to pledge a frat, meet new people from other places outside the hood, get their Bachelors and drink beer and throw up all over the dorm on the weekends. YOu feel as proud of that kid who gets to leave the hood and go to upstate New York as you do the kid who makes to to D1 and plays on TV.

Currently active and playing ball for NCAA right now and verifiable via Google for the dude or dudette who has some time on their hands.

Andre Nixon - SUNY Purchase
Terrence Henderson - SUNY Farmingdale
Trivante Bloodman - Mississippi State
Siddikki Johnson - Arizona, Providence
Basil Harley - Mowhawk Valley
Lazarro Martinez- Mowhawk Valley
Malik Thomas - Boston University
Karim Rowson - South Dakota
Kenny Thomas - SUNY Jefferson
Anthonelli Ramos - SUNY JEfferson
Dominique Nanton - Utica College
Curtis Loving - University of BRidgeport
Joe Turner - Queensborough
Ely Brown - SUNY Morrisville
Tyree Orsoco - Southeastern Iowa CC

Now back to the refs if you please. The borough supervisors are at games and more ref supervisors should be at games.

 

[psalguy]

Just on a Post Script before this other stuff takes on a life of its own don't forget about the work that has to be put in.

6 game tournament at Wadleigh of various AA seeds playing on the eve of the tournament on Saturday. Already decided Bye recipients #1, 4, 6, and 8 Billy Turnage WINGS, Tiny Morton LINCOLN, Mike Perrazzo TRANSIT TECH, Corey Semper BAYSIDE and countless other assistants and scouts on duty and in attendance not taking any chances to see who they may face. Nobody factors in the work that comes with this. Just the end results...wins and kids on television playing basketball.

I want to thank my man Bishop from Robeson for the tunes from his IPhone on the sound system that educated the young Skywalkers in training about true hip hop, the coaches and parents as students who supported us in that event. Top Dog I was hoping you would come and introduce yourself. Seems you are never around when you have the opportunity to approach people face to face and talk that keyboard shit.



This post was edited on 2/24 5:03 PM by psalguy